Zoe Glen
Hello, hello.
Billie Grace
Ah, we are back
.
Zoe Glen
Welcome back.
Thank you for coming back to listen to us for episode 2.
Billie Grace
Yeah, we are excited. We are talking today about feminism in theatre, which,
Zoe Glen
or probably more patriarchy in theatre?
Billie Grace
Yes,
Zoe Glen
realistically.
Billie Grace
So we did try to make a plan for this. But the truth about it is that it's kind of quite a big topic. And although we chose it, because it's the most obvious first topic to talk about, because it's sort of integral to the Not-God complex. I don't know where to start within all of that.
Zoe Glen
Yeah.
Let's start with why it is integral to the Not-God Complex, because that seems to make some sense. I think as a starting point. Yeah.
Billie Grace
Yes, that sounds like a starting point. Well, I guess we start with the name.
Zoe Glen
Yeah.
Billie Grace
Which is a direct response to the many practitioners that we have encountered
Zoe Glen
with God complexes
Billie Grace
Who suffer...yes..with quite colossal God complexes, yes.
Zoe Glen
We could joke
all of whom are men.
Yeah, we could joke to you that NGC stands for not grotowski complex that, that it could Yeah, that could be argued
Billie Grace
It could... I hadn't thought of that joke.
It's not what it is. But also, it's not wrong. So yeah.
Zoe Glen
It's sort of in response to kind of noticing how few female practitioners we learn about how few like women's work we were taught about both on a practitioner level and on a playwright level. And yeah,
Billie Grace
so we mentioned last time, and you'll probably know, because there's probably 30 of you listening, and you're probably all from the same course. But we all met at rose Bruford, European Theatre Arts, the course, which teaches you about a lot of European theatre as the name would suggest. And I guess it has a focus on actually going through a bunch of different practitioners. So we we kind of went through a lot. But yes, so in those many practitioners and practices and plays, and that we studied, I can think of two woman playwrites off the top of my head we did.
Zoe Glen
Yeah, maybe. Yeah, maybe I think a couple more, but like not many. And, like practitioners wise as well, in terms of like training, methodologies wise, like, they're, they're all men. And that's not even like, a just this course thing. That's like, they're just all men
Billie Grace
did we actually do any woman practitioners? We did. Like one lesson on Stella Adler, maybe?
Zoe Glen
Yeah, we did a little bit of viewpoints.
Billie Grace
Yes.
Zoe Glen
And we had like, amazing women teach us, they're kind of adaptations of stuff
Billie Grace
great teachers.
Zoe Glen
Like,
Billie Grace
it's like, when you stop and think about it, it's like, they're all men
Zoe Glen
like all of this. Yeah.
Billie Grace
Yeah. And yeah, I guess we were kind to thinking off that about the entire, like, lineage of Western actor training methods, because it's also worth noting that this is very Western. Like we're talking. Yes, it is European feature and a little bit into America here.
Yeah.
Zoe Glen
But there's like lineage of Western actor training, and that we call we call people call Stanislavski. Like the father of it, and just how weird that is.
Billie Grace
Yeah. Stanislavski is the father of theatre, some would say which um....
Zoe Glen
This silence is...telling
Billie Grace
I don't even know really how to...Like this is the problem is that I don't actually have the words to respond to how deep deeply rooted patriarchy is in something that should be a free explorative art form.
Zoe Glen
Yeah,
it's just basically
because there's not that there's I'm not going to be like, it's not that there's things wrong with Stanislavski, there is things wrong with Stanislavski but it's like, it's not being like, we don't like Stanislavski it's that like, everything. It's like you had Stanislavski and then you have Michael Chekhov and meyerhold. And just all of these Russian men. And then a few, and then a few men who weren't Russian.
Billie Grace
Yeah.
A lot of Russian men, some of them are American. But trained in Russia. Or train through that lineage anyway. Yeah. And it's just, and then there's the Polish men. They all Yeah, there's the Polish men too
Zoe Glen
Yeah, we'll get we'll get on to that
Billie Grace
And then this, there's this sort of Central European men writers.
Zoe Glen
Yeah, I think it's very interesting. Also, like there is such cultural variation for up Europe and throughout, like, the West. Yet, there is like a norm in theatre. And in like, what? Does this make sense?
Billie Grace
Yeah,
Zoe Glen
I'm not sure.
Billie Grace
Yes, it does. And I think I think actually, that goes right back to, to the idea of Stanislavski as the father of theatre, because what the what Western theatre is, mostly comes from this one practitioner. Yeah. And this one method, and this one idea of how to tell a story, basically, and how to bring characters to life. Yeah, just like how to do theatre.
Zoe Glen
Yeah,
I was gonna say, I guess, brings us on to writers and there being like, one way to portray female characters.
Billie Grace
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So this is this is a fun thing that I am, I guess, starting a project based around. I'm saying it now on a podcast. So I guess it has to happen. Yes, about basically, there's this fantastic book that I read, called days of abandonment. And it's by Elena Ferrante and you should all read it. It's a really great book, and the way that it's written and the way that it's just as a book, however, the character follows is not an original one, really. Or it's not an original formula anyway, and it's about a woman whose husband leaves her, and then her life falls apart.
Zoe Glen
Yeah. And it's like the entire, like, the entire book is about her husband, but he's in it for like, all four pages. But the entire book is just about him. Like, it's not about... It's not about the woman at all. It's just about this guy,
Billie Grace
a woman's response to this guy. Yeah. And but when you think about it that way, there are so many other similar stories that come to mind. And so many other similar characters. And so I guess, where I'm at with my thinking about this, and like, what I'm finding interesting is, so this is written by a woman. And there are other books that are similar, like, the yellow wallpaper and the trick is to keep breathing. Yeah, which is, so you recommended
Zoe Glen
Yeah, and
probably a million others that we cant think
of right now.
Billie Grace
Art written by women, and there are about, I guess, the internal struggle of this woman. And, and but again, in relation to the men leaving
,
Zoe Glen
yeah, it's basically like this trope of like, woman's sense of self and mental stability completely dissolves as a result of conflict with man.
Billie Grace
Yes. Um, but then it's interesting because that woman, that character exists throughout so much that returns right so, so much theatre, thinking back to like Chekhov, and Ibsen. And actually even Shakespeare, and actually, I was speaking to my partner. And I realised that also in the Greeks, like Greek mythology, and it's it's just this idea has been around forever. Why
Zoe Glen
it's so in stuff like, like Tennessee Williams, it's like, yeah, there's like the hysterical woman who like pillar of stability would be to like, be with a man. And yeah,
Billie Grace
it's interesting, I suppose, to notice this trope and to notice this reoccurring character. And there's something interesting in like the difference I think of when it's written by a woman and when it's written by a man
Zoe Glen
Yeah And I guess, like, what, what does something have to do to be a feminist text?
Billie Grace
Right?
Zoe Glen
Because it's like how does stuff that's written for women by women still fall into like patriarchal tropes? Yeah,
Billie Grace
I guess that is the thing. And I guess maybe that's something that could be like, Oh, God, I might be saying a stupid thing. And this, I might have to cut this out, but I'm gonna say it anyways and so how we go? Could there be a parallel drawn between or not a parallel? But could that be linked to like choice feminism? with the idea of like, a woman can do whatever she wants, as long as it makes her happy, which of course, but ignoring things about ignoring like if that woman is doing things that make her happy, but they make her happy? Because she is pleasing the man. Yeah, she's pleasing the male gaze?
Zoe Glen
Well, because it's, it's also like, it's the thing of being like, how is a story about a woman falling apart because she no longer exists in relation to a man feminist, but it's feminist in that it highlights that she has been taught to exist in relation to the man and that that entire struggle, is while, obviously, the story is about the emotional turmoil of like losing somebody close to you, in whatever sense. Actually, what it's about is like, this has had such an impact because of like, patriarchal standards being projected on this character.
Billie Grace
That's put a lot more succinctly than my kind of wandering thoughts about it
Zoe Glen
All we had to do is record a podcast and that we, we've got a more developed show idea! Because we've also been chatting a bit about, like, chrononormativity. And the idea that, like women have, yeah, expectations for the, like, expectations on them for the timeline to which they should live their lives that like they should meet a man, and then they should settle down and get married. And then they should have kids and like, all of that, yeah. And that the societal significance of like, emphasis on these things is, again, another part of what makes the like, events that these characters experience so dramatic for them. Or so like, difficult to grapple with, and then parallels with that and kind of bits of queer theory and how like, queer lives kind of oppose those c normative standards, which we can have a whole other podcast on heteronormativity probably several. So expected. Yeah. I guess. Yeah. A parallel that we're thinking about, or an intersection that we're considering? Yes.
Billie Grace
Oh, I was just gonna add the point back to like, yes. Women definitely have a expectation of like, when things should happen and what should happen. But once you get to you have kids, it's kind of it. That's sort of the point of womanhood. Yeah. According to patriarchal society,
Zoe Glen
and that it's like, Okay, well, you stay here now.
Billie Grace
Yeah, it's okay. You stay here. No, but then, which is actually really interesting, because so many of these characters, and especially um, it's Olga, and they some abandonment, she has children. So this is all happening after that already after that standstill point. And it's interesting, actually, because I suppose men don't have that same standstill expectation, or at least not at that same stage. Like, and I'm not I'm not here saying that men don't have a standards and chronological standards aren't important to mine as well. Of course they are. But it's just,
Zoe Glen
I guess, it's like there's still pressure, but there is different amount of pressure and the like, Man and different kinds of pressure. Yeah, like the man being, never woman is portrayed differently to the woman being with another man, which that's the other thing is like, she kind of spends the entire book going between trying to win her ex husband back and trying to, like attract a man who I think was her neighbour.
Yeah. A neighbour that her husband argued with in the past, like, it's like this kind of frantic, trying to like, play self back in relation to a man to man. Yeah. Whereas he went off with a younger woman.
Billie Grace
Yeah. And that's like, cause he wanted to Yeah, so Well, anyway, that's, that's that's days of abandonment. That's a project that is happening and therefore I have many unanswered thoughts.
Zoe Glen
we hope you enjoyed our...lengthly summary.
Billie Grace
Yeah. I'm like, but I think I mean, yeah, I guess this is, you know, why is feminism integral to the Not-God complex? I don't know. But it is everything that we do I feel like is Yeah, somehow. And that's,
Zoe Glen
that's where the feminist theme is showing up at our work at this current moment in time.
Billie Grace
Yes. And past though, we were going to talk about also is like, we have branded ourselves as doing some witchy stuff. Yeah.
Zoe Glen
Yes, witch vibes (tm).
Billie Grace
Which I think we can argue is also quite feminist. Yeah. Uh, yeah,
Zoe Glen
I think there is definitely something about reclaiming narratives in looking at witchcraft. And what does it mean to be a witch? and all of that kind of thing? witch trials? Yeah. Like,
Billie Grace
we were looking a lot at pagan. Yeah. tradition. Yeah. So
Zoe Glen
we've kind of got a bit of both going on that we're, we've been looking at, like, um, witch trials and what that was culturally and where there are parallels to current cultural things. And also looking at kind of the more like, spirituality, paganism. polytheist side of things. Yeah, it's really interesting, I think, because there's a lot of kind of, I guess, like, accidental feminism, or not accidental, but, um, feminist narratives from from from before feminism would have been a political term, you know? Yeah.
Unknown Speaker
I'm just thinking I'm like, about, cuz Actually, I don't think we've really properly talked about why witch vibes (tm) is feminist in our opinion. Like, just between ourselves. It just sort of feels feels that
Zoe Glen
I mean, there's something about like, the idea of Yeah, the, like, female goddesses being the big, like, the main ones in paganism? Because Yeah, you have Brigid, who is the goddess of like, basically summer slash spring slash fertility slash....other things We made a film thing to go watch it. And then you have Beira, who is the goddess of winter, basically, this is kind of a simplification of it. And there's lots of different like, kind of different interpretations of it from different branches of specifically Celtic paganism. Yeah, but there is something about your kind of like two main figures being women. Which, yeah, feels
Billie Grace
different from most modern organised religions.
Zoe Glen
Yeah. And there's also in a lot of the kind of folklore and again, with the finger of beer, I like, a lot of kind of narratives about older women, which you don't really get in, like, popular culture or texts like that. Like, they're not always evil, or it's more like complex than that, you know? No,
Billie Grace
that's true, actually. Yeah.
Zoe Glen
It is true. We love paganism for its complex female characters.
Good writing.
Billie Grace
good storytelling. Yeah. Good character progression. Yeah, give us your thoughts on why witchiness is feminist. Because we, because there's, it's like it is. It's obvious. And there's also, you know, things like, the witch trials were a direct attack on women who weren't conforming to societal norms. Ah,
Zoe Glen
yeah, we could take this into queer theory as well. Yeah, we're not going to do that now though
Billie Grace
Yeah, this is what I mean by it's like the just doing one half an hour episode on feminism and theatre. It feels absolutely impossible. To be honest. You're gonna hear more about this, this?
Zoe Glen
Yeah. This is probably just going to be in whatever we talk about ever. This podcast is just us relating
various topics to witch vibes and gay vibes. That's it.
That's what this is
Billie Grace
Trying to be academic about witchiness and gayness. That is, that is what's happening.
Zoe Glen
Yes.
Billie Grace
But it's, you know, it is true, and it is what our work I think it's fueled by. Yeah. And what kind of actually my life is fueled by not to be dramatic about it but I think it is. It kind of has to be. Yeah. So do you want to talk a little bit about? Yeah. So
Zoe Glen
speaking of trying to be academic about things,
Billie Grace
yeah. Yes,
Zoe Glen
I kind of thought that a useful piece of theory, try and give this some sense of being tied together is something from Rebecca Solnit, which is in I believe, recollections of my non existence. If anybody wants to look it up, I'll write it in the description thingy. But she talks about how for, to be able to say that somebody's voice is truly being heard. They have to have audibility, credibility and consequence. So audibility in that there is a chance for them to speak, that they have some sort of platform that they have some sort of opportunity to share their perspective, credibility that they are believed about their experiences, what their experiences are, how that affect them, all of that, and consequence that actual actions or change happen as a result of what they say. So I guess you can kind of look at all of the like, especially like, books and plays and stuff that we've discussed through that lens of being like, Can you say no, that actually has a woman's voice being heard? If it doesn't do all of those things that like point for the voice to speak, and that it is believed? And that there is some effect of that?
Billie Grace
Yeah. Because I think the downfall of many of these characters even is the credibility factor. Yeah, or rather, and the credibility factor then account for the lack of consequence. And that's like, within the character within the fictional world are also, you know, that that gets reflected into reality. And, like, the fact that there are so many of these characters around are kind of proof of the lack of credibility and consequence.
Zoe Glen
Yeah, in the narratives of like, female hysteria.
Billie Grace
Yeah.
Zoe Glen
Like, that's what that is to basically.
Billie Grace
That is what that is. Yeah, absolutely. I don't properly remember something that bell hooks wrote, but feel like that I maybe made a note or something that I thought was interesting. Yes. So I'll read the passage that I this is from All About Love New Visions by bell hooks. And I've only read a little bit and in the introduction, she says she's talking about male fantasy as in literally just fantasy fiction. She says male fantasy is seen as something that can create real reality, whereas female fantasy is regarded as pure escape. Hence, the romance novel remains the only domain in which women speak of love without with any degree of authority. And she goes on to talk about, basically, how, like how much more women have to fight, or I guess anyone who is not a man has to fight, to be heard, and to be relieved in their writing in their academic abilities? Um, yeah, actually, which I think what I'm thinking about is what we were talking about the other day, where you said that one of your lecturers told you gave you the option of easy literature written or not literature, easy theory, written by white men? Yeah. Or more complex theory written by not white men.
Zoe Glen
And, yeah, and then you kind of get that with, like, all the intersections of like that, like it is you have to work hard to be heard as a woman, but then also, like, when that intersects with race or sexuality, or Yeah, or anything, like it's just like, even more, if you are not a straight white man, then good luck.
Billie Grace
No, maybe we should be clear that it's if you know, it's if you're not a cis-het white man. Yes.
Zoe Glen
The other point that I just remembered is that, um, so many of like, if you read some theory about theatre practitioners, they refer to their students as he always, right. Yeah. Always.
Like, they're just, they're just describing like, an exercise, you know, it's like, the student stands opposite the other student, and then they do this. And instead of referring to them as they or the student, or giving, like, specific, like, we're going to call this student this and this student this abuse hypothetical, or really, some people are just like, student is he? Like, it's like, I don't know, like, boats or whatever over objects were, like, consistently gendered and languages like in languages that aren't English where there's like, yeah, like,
Billie Grace
Oh, no, no, it's true. I remember actually. And now I can't remember for the life of me what that was, I remember being given an expert from something in our first year. And I think it was written by a woman. And it was the only it was the first text then. And it has since remained the only text that I have ever read that refer that does that, but refers to any hypothetical student as a she. Yeah. And I know that a lot of more contemporary writing, tries to use they, for obvious reasons. But it was interesting just to be... I'll have to see if I can remember what that text was.
Zoe Glen
Everything we've forgotten will be in the show notes.
Billie Grace
If not, did you like if not, if I don't if I actually can't find it? And if you know, a text about theatre, in which the student is referred to as she, it's probably that one. Yeah, please let me know. Like, it's probably that text... Or at least that writer, but yeah, so um, how long have we been recording?
Zoe Glen
35 minutes? we've started to wrap this up. And, then um, we've talked for over 10 minutes, but it's fine.
Billie Grace
Yeah, no, it's fine. It's cool. Um, look, I don't know if we said much other than we have anger towards the patriarchy. Especially. Yeah. Like,
Zoe Glen
we wish we could talk about good, feminist practice in theatre. But um,
yeah, it's quite patriarchal
So there's some rambles about the patriarchy, and then some vague chats about how we attempt to do feminist themes.
Billie Grace
I think it would be nice to talk at some point, in another episode, more about navigating the patriarchal system in drama school. Yeah. And then in the industry. Yeah. but we don't have time for that, now.
Zoe Glen
Yeah. We also,
Billie Grace
stay tuned for some gay stuff. Yeah.
Zoe Glen
and some witch stuff, there will be chats on them, and kind of, I guess, how this intersects with queer stuff. And also I think we do recognise that, um, gender is a complex thing, and therefore, sexism is a complex thing, Yes, and gender discrimination is a complex thing. That's...that's another half hours chat at least
this is introduction, to feminist rambles
Billie Grace
An introduction to the amount of anger we have.
Zoe Glen
We hope you enjoyed.
Billie Grace
Yeah. If you are a theatre practitioner, who would like to join in on these kinds of chats, reach out to us - we don't have a particular plan for what we want to do in these episodes
Zoe Glen
send us an email
Billie Grace
We are open to chatting to people,
Zoe Glen
send us an instagram message, tweet us, whatever you want.
Billie Grace
These are things you can also follow. Yeah, if you'd like. Yeah.
Zoe Glen
We'll be back in some form next month,
Billie Grace
we will. In the meantime, please, enjoy any update on this project that I am doing, because we're about to announce it today on the day of recording. And, and I've now spoken about it. Yeah. So that's happening. Now. You can also, if you haven't yet, go watch our film.
Zoe Glen
Yeah. And you can listen to episode one. If you haven't already listened to Episode One of this podcast. Yeah, this episode might make more sense. If you've listened to episode one.
Billie Grace
Possibly. We mostly just introduce ourselves
Zoe Glen
that is there. If you haven't already listened to it, subscribe to our podcast. I think you can do that.
Billie Grace
I think we can do that. I think if you're on apple, you can give us like ratings and reviews. Every podcast that I ever listened to always say that that's like the biggest help. Yeah. So yeah, do that.
Zoe Glen
That would be nice to us
Billie Grace
that that would be great. We'd love that. And yeah,
Zoe Glen
we will speak to you next month.
Billie Grace
Bye.